foorum.akvarist.ee

Akvaariumihuviliste kohtumispaik


Kõik kellaajad on UTC + 2 tundi [ DST ]



 [ 3 postitust ] 
Autor Sõnum
PostitusPostitatud: Esmaspäev Veebr 19, 2007 05:02 
Akvarist

Liitunud: Teisipäev Dets 16, 2003 02:46
Postitusi: 442
Asukoht: Tallinn
Jutt on siis sellest, kes akvaariumifiltris tööd teevad.

Reinu tsitaadi allikas on
http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?name= ... me=Printer

Rein kirjutas:
See on kahtlemata huvitav teooria - kuid seni siiski vaid teooria sest tundub et see on vaid ühe mehe nägemus asjast, ma ei kiirustaks selle alusel põhjapanevate järeldustega.
For years it was believed that the species of bacteria responsible for nitrification were Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas. It has recently been shown that this is wrong and that Nitrospira is actually responsible.
Levinum ja üldtunnustatud arusaam on siiski selline et Nitrosomonas oksüdeerib ammoniaagi nitritiks ning Nitrospira või Nitrobacteri rolliks on nitriti oksüdeerimine nitraatideks. Selle kohta leiab hulgi ka autoriteetseid allikaid.



See originaaltekst, mida Rein tsiteeris, on tõesti kehv (poolik) ning autor oleks pidanud konkreetsemalt kirjutama nii, et kõik aru saavad. Tundub, et ta lause jäi poolikuks. Kahjuks ei selgu, kes oli selle teksti autor.

Mõte on see, et Reinu toodud levinum ja üldtunnustatud versioon ei ole siiski korrektne.

Nitrobacter on akvaristikas tähtsusetu tegija ning ka Nitrosomonas bakterite roll ei ole nii domineeriv.

Kood:
Magevees käib asi nii:
Nitrosomonas marina-like and Nitrosospira NH3 -> NO2
Nitrospira-like NO2 -> NO3

Merevees käib asi nii:
Nitrosomonas aestuarii-like and N. halophila-like NH3 -> NO2
Nitrospira marina-like NO2 -> NO3


Vaadake 2004 powerpoint presentatsiooni:
http://aqualitysymposium.org/ppts/biolo ... cteria.ppt


http://www.marineland.com/science/biosp ... ospira.asp

Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D. kirjutas:
I then did an experiment were I took nucleic acids from many aquarium set-ups, including freshwater, saltwater, with fish in the tanks, tanks which were dosed with ammonium chloride, heavily and lightly stocked tanks, and probed them with the molecular probes for both Nitrobacter and Nitrospira. The results were that in no case did I find Nitrobacter (same results as in my earlier paper) but in every freshwater aquarium I found Nitrospira and in each saltwater aquaria I found evidence of Nitrospira. Thus, I am able to conclude that Nitrobacter and its close relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquarium filters and that Nitrospira-like bacteria are present in the filters.


http://www.marineland.com/science/biosp ... OxBact.asp

Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D. kirjutas:
However, some people in the fish hobby business have misinterpreted my paper and are saying that I found that Nitrosomonas europaea does not oxidize ammonia and, by the way, that Nitrobacter winogradskyi does not nitrite. These statements are wrong and are not what I found. Nitrosomonas europaea does oxidize ammonia and Nitrobacter winogradskyi does oxidize nitrite but they don't seem to be present in freshwater aquaria. Further, some people think that I was just plain wrong but that's another story.

So why is it assumed that the ammonia-oxidizer is Nitrosomonas europaea? Because, among other things, that's the bacteria which is believed to oxidize ammonia in wastewater treatment plants. The problems with this thinking it that just because a bacterium in found in one environment which contains the substrate it prefers does not mean it would be automatically found in another environment which also has that substrate. Secondly, no one has proven that N. europaea is really the major ammonia-oxidizer in wastewater facilities. In fact, recent studies has shown that while N. europaea can be found in the microbial assemblage of wastewater plants, they may not be the dominant ammonia-oxidizer.


Timothy A. Hovanec kirjutas:
It's time for hobbyists, technical people, and writers of articles in the fish hobby press to start using the correct name for the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquaria - Nitrospira.


Timothy A. Hovanec tundub olevat autoriteetne tegelane.
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Hovanec,TA

Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/67/12/5791
Tsiteeri:
When ammonia concentrations were varied, AOB population shifts did occur, thereby altering the presence and activity of important AOB. Low-ammonia environments will likely produce Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB, while as the ammonia concentration increases, Nitrosospira tenuis-like and Nitrosomonas europaea-like AOB will become important until at the highest ammonia concentration Nitrosococcus mobilis-like AOB may be predominant. Our results suggest that the AOB found in fish culture environments, such as public aquaria, aquaculture facilities, and home aquaria, where the ambient ammonia concentration rarely exceeds 5 mg of N per liter, are different from the traditional Nitrosomonas europaea-Nitrosococcus mobilis cluster type AOB, which are prevalent in the high-ammonia concentrations typically found in environment such as wastewater and sewage treatment facilities. This, and our results with enrichments of the various strains of AOB in newly set-up aquaria, strongly suggest that start-up inocula for the establishment of nitrification in aquatic culture systems should optimally consist of Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB rather than Nitrosomonas europaea-Nitrosococcus mobilis cluster AOB.


Veel viiteid:

http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Nitrospira
Tsiteeri:
In addition, Nitrospira-like bacteria are the main nitrite oxidizers in wastewater treatment plants and in laboratory scale reactors, not Nitrobacter sp., as was previously thought.


Tsiteeri:
Nitrification is the oxidation of ammonia to nitrite by autotrophic bacteria of the genus Nitrosomonas and oxidation of the nitrite to nitrate by bacteria in the genus Nitrobacter or Nitrospira.


Tsiteeri:
Thus, Nitrospira is now considered the dominate nitrite-oxidizing bacterium in aquariums, (as well as in wastewater treatment systems and other reactors as shown by other similar studies) (Hovanec et al.1998). Though water that is too rich in ammonia or has a pH that is too low will inhibit Nitrospira's nitrifying activity.


http://www.microbial-ecology.net/nitriteoxidizers.asp
Tsiteeri:
Only recently, cultivation-independent methods revealed that novel, yet uncultured NOB are far more important than Nitrobacter in wastewater treatment plants (Burrell et al., 1998; Juretschko et al., 1998; Schramm et al., 1998). These bacteria belong to the genus Nitrospira, which is part of the bacterial phylum Nitrospirae (Ehrich et al., 1995), and are not related to Nitrobacter.


NB! Viide teistele teadlastele, seega tegemist ei ole ühe inimese nägemusega.

http://www.marineland.com/science/nspira.asp
Tsiteeri:
Molecular research is impacting all facets of our lives. Yet, until recently, this research had only scratched the surface of the aquatic industry. Now, however, using the modern methods of molecular biology including bacterial cloning, DNA sequencing, DNA fingerprinting, and Fluorescent In Situ Hybridization Marineland Labs has discovered BIO-Spira, the actual bacteria responsible for nitrification in closed aquatic systems.


Põhijutt on Nitrospira versus Nitrobacteria, mis on mõlemad teise faasi osalised ehk nitraatide tootjad.

http://www.microbial-ecology.net/nitriteoxidizers.asp
Tsiteeri:
Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB) catalyze the second step of aerobic nitrification, the oxidation of nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-).


http://www.marineland.com/science/biosp ... acter2.asp
Teised teadlased on samuti uurinud: Burrell, P. C., J. Keller, and L. L. Blackall.

http://www.flippersandfins.net/CyclingB ... cteria.htm


Need algajad, kes on üritanud oma filtris Nitrobacteria baktereid kasvatada, võivad kergendusega hingata, et ebaõnnestumine polnud nende süü. Oleks tulnud keskenduda teistele bakteritele :-)

Need, kes leiavad oma filtrist Nitrosomonas europaea baktereid, peavad tõdema et tegemist pole akvaariumiga vaid kõrge ammoniaagikontsentratsiooniga solgiveekaevuga :roll:

EDIT: no on ikka tähevigu :)


Viimati muutis devi, Teisipäev Veebr 20, 2007 12:34, muudetud 3 korda kokku.

Üles
PostitusPostitatud: Esmaspäev Veebr 19, 2007 08:58 
Moderator
Kasutaja avatar

Liitunud: Esmaspäev Dets 29, 2003 12:21
Postitusi: 5555
Pildid: 6
Asukoht: Harjumaa, Kangru
devi kirjutas:
Kood:
Magevees käib asi nii:
Nitrosomonas marina-like and Nitrosospira NH3 -> NO2
Nitrospira-like NO2 -> NO2

Ilmselt siin näpukas ja peaks olema:
Nitrosomonas marina-like and Nitrosospira NH3 -> NO2
Nitrospira-like NO2 -> NO3
devi kirjutas:
Vaadake 2004 powerpoint presentatsiooni:
http://aqualitysymposium.org/ppts/biolo ... cteria.ppt

Siit hakkas muide üks teine põnev väide silma:
Tsiteeri:
At most 20% of bacterial biomass on a biofilter, but usually 2-5%

Tegelikult olen kogu aeg arvanud et filtri ja eriti filtrimaterjalide rolli kiputakse meil ületähtsustama, see on esimene tõsiseltvõetav kinnitus mida olen sattunud lugema.

Muus osas tuleb aga ilmselt nõustuda, arusaamad asjadest on muutunud. Kusjuures ka varem räägiti nitritist nitraatide saamisel Nitrospira või Nitrobacteri rollist kuid rõhk oli Nitrobacteri poolel, nüüd siis loetakse põhitegijaks Nitrospirat. Ja nagu võib lugeda on bakterite liikide osas pilt tegelikult sootuks kirjum.


Üles
PostitusPostitatud: Esmaspäev Veebr 19, 2007 09:11 
Akvarist

Liitunud: Teisipäev Dets 16, 2003 02:46
Postitusi: 442
Asukoht: Tallinn
Rein kirjutas:
devi kirjutas:
Kood:
Magevees käib asi nii:
Nitrosomonas marina-like and Nitrosospira NH3 -> NO2
Nitrospira-like NO2 -> NO2

Ilmselt siin näpukas ja peaks olema:
Nitrosomonas marina-like and Nitrosospira NH3 -> NO2
Nitrospira-like NO2 -> NO3
devi kirjutas:
Vaadake 2004 powerpoint presentatsiooni:
http://aqualitysymposium.org/ppts/biolo ... cteria.ppt

Siit hakkas muide üks teine põnev väide silma:
Tsiteeri:
At most 20% of bacterial biomass on a biofilter, but usually 2-5%

Tegelikult olen kogu aeg arvanud et filtri ja eriti filtrimaterjalide rolli kiputakse meil ületähtsustama, see on esimene tõsiseltvõetav kinnitus mida olen sattunud lugema.

Muus osas tuleb aga ilmselt nõustuda, arusaamad asjadest on muutunud.


Jah, NO2 -> NO3.
Biomassi väide tekitas minus küsimusi, et kas on jutt kõikidest bakteritest või ainult nendest konkreetsetest. Need mainitud tegelased vabalt vees kindlasti ei laiuta vaid on kruusa, taimede, seinte, sodi, vetikate ja muu pahna küljes.

Muidu mulle tundub samuti, et filtri roll on omaette teema. Ilmselt akvaariumi puudujääkide kompenseerimiseks (bakteritel pole muud kodu) ja esteetikaks (sodi on siis filtris). Umbes nagu Lasnamäe elurajoon -- tööjõud oli ju tarvis kuskile paigutada, sest linnas polnud vabu pindu.

Huvitav on ka lugeda, kuidas on lood jõevees.
Seine jõe lättel, kus solk vette lastakse, on NOB rollis aktiivsed nitrobakterid. Kus vesi puhtamaks läheb, seal tegutsevad nitrospira bakterid. Merre suubumisel on omakorda soolasema vee tõttu taaskord nitrobakterid ametis. Tundub, et bakterite värk oleneb üsna oluliselt konkreetsetest oludest.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum


Üles
 [ 3 postitust ] 

Kõik kellaajad on UTC + 2 tundi [ DST ]


Sa ei saa teha uusi teemasid siin foorumis
Sa ei saa postitustele vastata siin foorumis
Sa ei saa muuta oma postitusi siin foorumis
Sa ei saa kustutada oma postitusi siin foorumis
Sa ei saa postitada siin foorumis manuseid

PHPBB Archiver